The post 180 days in Greece on the blog has moved quite a few people to react strongly. I think the main issue here is that there are people who love Greece, own a house/boat here and who would like to stay for a longer period in this country.
In order to find out what possibilities there are and how they might convince the Greek government to change the law they have a Facebook page with members. If you are interested in the subject you might think of joining and if you are not interested you move on to the next post that I will be posting soon. If there are nasty comments I will remove them.
Like I say: Skopelosnews is a village square where we can discuss anything of interest to the readers. If you disagree with someone, please, disagree cordially.
‘180 days in Greece’ is a Facebook group page which is specifically for UK residents who have properties and/or boats on Skopelos and in Greece. The group campaigns towards the Greek government to give the 180 days in Greece they can stay, to be allowed to be used in one block instead of the Schengen agreement of 90 days on and 90 days off. Spending time in one six month period will obviously benefit the island financially.
Below is the information from the group: The group was set up to campaign in Greece for a change to the Schengen 90/180 travel rule to allow Greek property and boat owners who are former EU citizens to use their holiday homes or boats up to 180 days flexibly, according to their own needs, in any 360-day period. We believe this small tweak to the Schengen rules would be in Greece’s interests by helping to stimulate the tourist economy and real estate market, which was badly hit by the Coronavirus pandemic in 2020. Please note you need to answer all three membership questions if you’re interested in joining and that only constructive posts and comments are permitted. We only accept members who own or lease a property or who own and berth a boat in Greece
skopelosnews 
This is a strongly discredited group who, if you read all their FB posts, are basically people who want the benefits of Greek residency whilst avoiding the responsibility of paying tax here. They spend a great deal of energy trying to find ways to cheat the rules. I really do not think Skopelos News should be a megaphone for their views and would ask you to remove the post. Their approach risks discrediting the many law abiding long term resident Brits who have committed to living in Greece and whose status has been compromised by Brexit.
Hello Alan, I have asked an explanation from the lady who asked me to put this information on the blog and I am waiting for her reply. Daphne
Hello Skopelos News and Alan Banks. Many thanks for posting the link to the group I founded and which I’m closely associated with – it was a new member of the group who requested you to do so in good faith, and the fact that it has prompted a flood of new membership applications to the group shows it is very much an important issue. In fact my association is so close, that I’m sure my lawyers would be very interested in Alan’s potentially libellous comments should I choose to alert them to them. In no way are we discredited and the Greek government has indicated informally it is sympathetic to our situation. I would suggest you remove Alan’s post and ask him to apologise to me and the 700 plus members of our group who he has insulted and maligned. His comments do not meet with the mission statement of Skopelos News which is stated on your front page, namely: “if you disagree with someone, please, disagree cordially”. Many thanks, David Young
Hello Skopelos News – Mr Banks has no knowledge of this group. He is not a member and does not ‘see’ any of the posts. It is absolutely not discredited. He misrepresents the aims and implies that those who are members are not law abiding. Thank you for informing your followers about the group.
Alan I have no opinion about this FB group. But a couple of points; 1. Post-Brexit, EU citizens can visit the UK for a full block of 180 days. The sentiment is growing that this could be reciprocated. 2. The threshold for paying income tax has alway been at 180+ in both directions i.e. if you are from Greece visiting/staying in UK you become liable to UK income tax or if you are UK visiting/staying in Greece you become liable to Greek income tax. This is nothing to do with (non) membership of the EU. It results from Double Taxation agreements between Greece and the UK which go back to the 1950s – way before UK joined the EU. As the owner of a property in Skopelos I have never had any intention of spending more than 180 days per year there because of the income tax complications. But that doesn’t make me a tax dodger. It makes me someone who loves her permanent home in Scotland, but who also loves Skopelos and wants to spend time in her second home – and spend money there as well as pay all appropriate taxes on property, car etc etc.
The rules relating to TCNs are extremely clear and pre date Brexit. They apply to British visitors post Brexit. You can spend 90 days in a 180 day period, without a visa. Alternatively, if you were legally resident in Greece by the end of 2020, and continue to be legally resident thereafter, you can get a biometric residency card. This quite rightly imposes in most cases tax residency in Greece.
This is the consequence of Brexit. They are not new rules made up by the EU to punish the UK.
I agree it inconveniences people who want to spend, say, the 5 summer months in Greece but it is what it is. It is simply a British sense of exceptionalism that makes some people think special rules should be made for them.
Brexit forced a binary choice – reside and pay tax in Greece or come as a tourist. A horrible choice but one all of us have to live with.
It’s not a binary choice at all, Alan, and this is a trope regularly and erroneously wheeled out by people such as yourself. All it does is frighten some people off applying for residency cards they may be entitled to. There is no requirement to be tax resident in Greece to avail yourself of the biometric cards under the Withdrawal Agreement (although people should consult their own accountants). The only requirement is to not be absent from Greece for more than six months per year during the five years you hold the temporary biometric card (although even then you can have a 12 month absence for a significant reason). Tax residency is wholly separate and is generally not triggered until you are in Greece 183 days plus. Greece also has the latitude if it wishes to change the rules, and that is what we are campaigning for. France already has a 4-6 month temporary visa for 99 euros, the Czech Republic has said people won’t lose Withdrawal Agreement residency rights even if they don’t fulfil the absence/presence requirements, and Greece has some 15 bilateral agreements which vary the 90/180 agreement, at least five of which came into effect after it joined Schengen. An neither is it a case of ‘British exceptionalism’ — the fact is UK nationals ARE now an exception, as citizens of the only sovereign nation to have left the EU. That has created anomalies such as this which contravene the European Convention on Human Rights.
I think it’s Alan Banks who is strongly discredited rather than this FaceBook Group. He seems keen to bolster his own feeling of self-righteousness by making false suggestions that those who want to spend more than 90 days in Greece are somehow tax dodgers.
Comments like his do nothing to help anyone whether full-time Greek residents or otherwise.
I know Alan and i know David and Roger, Alan is correct and David runs a group ,that if you disagree, you get banned, no real open discussion allowed .
Its all we deserve this, we are the ones that keep those poor Greek running all poor me.
While i feel for you 90/180 people,
Why didn’t you all realise this 4 years ago?
Why have you left it till not to cry about ?
Why have you never got in touch with BIE in the last four years to fight for your corner?
I am afraid AMr Banks is correct when it comes to a binary choice. The rules existed before Brexit. All TCNs have the same choices, as unfortunate as they may be, perhaps the only difference is that other TCNs never had the rights to begin with so their own country could have them removed. The UK had entirely different allowances for TCNs, which is why the ‘making our own immigration rules’ arguement for Brexit seemed a little ironic.
If the desire to spend 180 days in Greece, or in fact anywhere in the Schengen, according to one’s own desires then 183 days would be required to obtain a residency card (and any tax implications that go with it). Yes, unfortunately three extra days. Unless the group is actually campaigning for 183 day privileged but less three days so we can remain non tax payers? I can’t say. I am not aware of this group.
I am quite certain there are numerous other citizens of TCs who are and have been in the same predicament for many years. To date no change has been made for them so I am interested to know why it would be for UK citizens as an exception?
This is hypocritical as there are many permanent residents dodging tax in Greece. U K state pensions are liable for tax in Greece under the Double Taxation Agreement between Greece and Uk. Gov uk INTM343040 note3. Dual homeowners are abiding by all existing tax laws,treaties and the WA. Why are some people’s lives so sad and miserable that they have to concern themselves with things that do not affect their lives. What gives them the right to think that they can make unfounded,libellous comments about others. People in glass houses really shouldn’t throw stones.
Isaacs Neither you or Alan Banks know the tax laws. For Greece it is PLUS 183 days and for the UK it is where your permanent home is and points of interest. Staying 183 days in Greece is fine. To obtain a residence card one must not be absent for more than 6 months. No where in the W A does it state that you must be paying tax in your host state. Every one has been affected by brexit, for those already settled why are they so venomous to those who have bought properties but can not be here full time while they still have commitments in UK. It would be a good thing in this difficult period of adjusting to brexit and the pandemic if people could show kindness to each other and have some empathy for the problems of others,
Hi Anna, I completely agree!. Thank you, Daphne
Anna, no one should be dodging tax, but that is a little bit whataboutish, since that activity is already illegal. Dual home owners can continue to abide by the tax laws by spending 90/180 days in the Schengen and being resident in the UK or by being tax resident in an EU country by becoming resident and staying longer. There is nothing liable about it. Those are simply the rules for all TCNs as they stand.
And as for throwing stones this is an issue that affects me personally. Choices, binary ones, must be made. Whatever material your home may be constructed from.
I am afraid I do know the tax laws, as my situation dictates. To obtain residency in Greece you must reside for 6 months or more. Once you have agreed to that to obtain residency you automatically become tax resident due to spending 183 days or more in the country. You may still be eligible to be tax resident in the UK under their laws but you will have signed an agreement Tobe resident in Greece, ergo as a resident you fall under the Greek law.
There is no venom. It is not an easy choice, as I well know. I do not expect others to have specific empathy for myself, everyone has their own cross to bear. The kindness is helping people not fall foul of tax laws as I believe the penalties to be quite harsh.
Issacs – I am afraid you are misunderstanding the purpose of this campaign group set up by David Young which conducts itself in an extremely professional way via its Facebook page. ‘180 days in Greece’ is a group specifically set up to lobby the Greek government to consider introducing a new visa that would enable stays of between 90-180 days in Greece. There is a similar visa available in France, so this kind of arrangement is perfectly possible within existing EU legislation. It would mirror the fact that EU citizens are allowed to stay up to 180 days continuously in the UK post Brexit. The campaign may or may not succeed but it is an ethical, professional campaign group and the comments some have made here about tax evasion etc are unfounded and offensive. Well done Anna Coutts for reminding everyone of the need for kindness at this time and well done Daphne at Skopelos News for your usual calm and measured approach.
Isaacs Again I am afraid you are wrong to keep the beige biometric the wording in the WA states must not be absent for more than 6 months therefore since the Greek tax states PLUS 183 days staying 183 days doesn’t make anyone tax resident in Greece. All treaties and laws are carefully worded to avoid ambiguity ,all accountants and lawyers work to the letter of the law. Those who registered before 31st Dec are entitled to obtain a biometric and will stick to the rules of the WA. Instead of bothering about what dual home owners are legally doing .Perhaps for those permanent residents here their time would be better spent making sure that they are complying with the Greek tax laws as I know many are fiddling by not paying tax on their state pension or pensions they think are government when from the hmrc international manual they clearly are not. Greece has advanced electronically very quickly and it is not the part timers who are going to be caught but the tax dodgers living here full time. I hope this group is sucessful instead of 2 lots of 90 days it is better to have 180 as it cuts down carbon emissions and helps the climate 2 flights instead of 4.
You are talking to neither a pension receiver nor a tax evader, and I find it odd that you are worried about what permanent residents are doing being concerned about dual home owners when you yourself are clearly concerned with what they are or aren’t doing. A touch ironic. And considering you believef an afore mentioned post libellous this smacks of a little pot and kettle scenario.
And am I this to assume that your means of ‘getting around’ the TCN rules, for which obtaining a biometric would make someone legally resident in a country outside the UK (this removing your permanent address as the UK) it is proposed you only visit on months containing 31 days,not at the very least avoid periods of stay that include June and July consecutively and be sure to include February? Well, good luck. Personally I cannot manage 180 days holiday a year, but that’s just my position.
And for what it’s worth permeant residents have long been campaigning against Brexit and fighting for the WA rights now granted. This does however mean that they also fought long and hard for dual home owners rights too, by default. I prefer to remember this rather than dismiss or slate them, personally.
In addition I should reiterate that all these rules were in place before Brexit. Those who voted leave, of which some residents and dual home owners did, do only really have themselves to thank.
Anna, if you have ‘solved the problem’ of being in Greece for six months (by carefully calculating so as not to be 183 days + and yet only taking two flights, while not becoming a tax resident by simply gaining a residency card and the being able to stay over the 90 days, you have surely fixed the 180 days issue, no?
Isaacs Pot calling the kettle black Why are you concerning yourself with what dual owners are doing? I know plenty of permanent residents who are fiddling their tax and I could name them as I didn’t I have not libelled anyone. I would not presume to know which way people voted in the referendum, but since it is now reality people are needing help to cope with it. People are posting in accurate information which is neither useful or helpful. They do not know the EC directive 2004/38 or the WA. Before posting perhaps they should take the time to study the relevant documents concerning the tax laws, the DTA and the WA.Those that registered before the end of 2020 are entitled to obtain a biometric if they meet the conditions. It wil be decided by the officials in the immigration department not by people making vitriolic comments.
Why am I concerning myself with it? Err, as a dual home owner. It’s kind of important that I do so. And yes, I have an accountant. It’s not vitriolic although do feel free to read into something whatever you wish, as is your desire. You didn’t name anyone, neither did Mr Banks. See my point you just made?
You did not however answer the question. You have sorted it, no?
Isaacs, If people acquire a biometric the problem of only 90/180 is immaterial as they only need not to be absent from Greece for 6 months or more to retain the biometric as I explained 183 days does not make you tax resident. However many will not have registered before the end of 2020 and will not be eligible for a biometric which means 90/180. Many retirees have health problems and find travelling difficult so therefore being able to stay in one chunk would suit them better than having to sort out their home in Uk then doing the same to their Greek home after90 days and again in UK.Also 90 days may not be enough if having renovations or building work done, some may be in the middle of building homes. On environmental grounds and pure common sense makes me believe that member states should be free to make concessions for previous EU citizens whose rights were removed and not of their choosing.These people that stay 6 months and have invested in Greece by acquiring property are an economic advantage to Greece. They contribute to the Greek economy as they pay for their health care, they are not having children educated, they are not entitled to any benefits nor are they taking any jobs from people. Also as not working they are out and about more, spending in the Greek market. It is all positives for the economy.
Out of interest, ‘Isaacs’ and ‘Remainer’, both of whom are hiding behind pseudonyms, are you actually people with an interest in Skopelos and regular followers of this blog? For some reason which is a mystery to me, some British people seem to really have a problem with the ‘180 days in Greece’ campaign group ? This is strange as were it to be successful, it can only be beneficial to the Greek economy. It is sad to see this vitriol and negativity, (which has already been displayed on other Facebook pages ) spilling over also on to Skopelos News, which is always a fair-minded, positive and uplifting space.
Firstly I can only assume you would like e to apologise for my name, but perhaps that’s an issue you should take up with my parents. I am stuck with it I am afraid. I can thus only conclude that yourselves and the 180 group are also deeply connected with Skopelos and this news blog too. That is good news.It wasn’t what Mr Banks seemed to be suggesting however.
I believe I have made my own situation as clear as it need to be, although other posts here were concerned with hat business anyone had drawing opinions about others situations. I am however going to restate that there are any number of TCNs who are it British citizens who have always been in this situation. The fault lies squarely with those who voted to remove rights that both holidayers and residents had, the British just seem unable or unwilling to accept that which does smack a little of exceptionalism. I am absolutely certain TCNs from other countries like contribute just as much to the Greek economy were they given the same rights you want returned.
In addition the permeant residents of the present and future have also lost their futures, but there seems to be much negatively and vitriol towards those from dual home owners from such people as yourself who appear to dismiss their plight entirely. Perhaps this is why there is such backlash? Not being in that group I find it difficult to be specific, obviously. Although I am aware of many who contribute greatly, as I know immigrants in the UK do likewise. Their children, for whom they pay for their education both state and privately (as they do with their healthcare and all other aspects of their lives) go on to join the future generations who become the people who make the fabric of Greek life you are currently enjoying possible. The doctors, nurses, road builders, rubbish collectors, restaurant workers etc . This is true of all immigrant, from all countries, not only the British.
You are however apparently still quite upset with me, who simply sees their point of view, which is odd. If you wish to remain that way with me that is your concern, not mine.
I look forward to those, who as suggested wish to play Schrödinger’s resident, holding a residency card for Greece whilst claiming their permeant home is in the UK, staying 6 months but not 183+ days and yet managing this by taking only two flights to save the climate whilst also keeping the Greek economy afloat, managing this successfully. My concerns however will remain broader and encompass those for whom all freedom of movement has been curtailed by looking forward to a time when the UK can successfully rejoin the EU and improve the situation for holidaymakers and residents alike. That seems only fair.
I hope you enjoy your lives on Skopelos.